Radio interview
Alan Keyes discusses homosexuality with Sirius OutQ
August 31, 2004New York City
MICHELANGELO SIGNORILE, HOST: I am speaking with Alan Keyes- -and you've come to the Republican convention to support President Bush, I presume?
ALAN KEYES: Certainly. I think that President Bush needs to be reelected for the sake of this country's security. He has provided the kind of leadership that we're going to have to have if we're going to confront and defeat the challenge of terrorism that has already claimed so many American lives.
SIGNORILE: What did you think of Vice President Cheney last week coming out and saying he doesn't agree with the President on the Federal Marriage Amendment? Seems to be a break with the party. Do you think he is sending a mixed signal?
KEYES: I don't know. I think he is entitled to his personal convictions, but I think that the party's position is the correct one. We have to stand in defense of the traditional marriage institution in order to preserve its basis in procreation and make sure that we retain an understanding of family life that is rooted in the tradition of procreation, of childbearing and childrearing. That is the essence of family life.
SIGNORILE: Now, Vice President Cheney, of course, has a daughter. She is gay. He used the word gay. He says he has a gay daughter. He seems very proud of his gay daughter. It seems like real family values and certainly seems like preserving the American family. Is his family un-American?
KEYES: No, the point of the matter is that marriage, as an institution, involves procreation. It is in principle impossible for homosexuals to procreate. Therefore, they cannot marry. It is a simple logical syllogism, and one can wish all one might, but pigs don't fly and we can't change the course of nature.
SIGNORILE: Well, one can wish that Bob and Liddy Dole would have a child, but that's just impossible. Pigs can't fly.
KEYES: No, I'm sorry, that is incidental. In point of fact, Bob and Liddy Dole can have children. They incidentally face problems that prevent them from doing so. In principle . . .
SIGNORILE: Don't homosexuals incidentally face problems too?
KEYES: No, you don't understand the difference between incident and essence. Homosexuals are essentially incapable of procreation. They cannot mate. They are not made to do so. Therefore the idea of marriage for two such individuals is an absurdity.
SIGNORILE: But one or the other in the couple can procreate. The men can donate their sperm, the women can have babies.
KEYES: The definition and understanding of marriage is "the two become one flesh." In the child, the two transcend their persons and unite together to become a new individual. That can only be done through procreation and conception. It cannot be done by homosexuals.
SIGNORILE: But what about a heterosexual couple who cannot bear children and then adopt? They are not becoming one as flesh, they are taking someone else's flesh.
KEYES: And they are adopting the paradigm of family life. But the essence of that family life remains procreation. If we embrace homosexuality as a proper basis for marriage, we are saying that it is possible to have a marriage state that in principle excludes procreation and is based simply on the premise of selfish hedonism. This is unacceptable.
SIGNORILE: So Mary Cheney is a selfish hedonist, is that it?
KEYES: Of course she is. That goes by definition. Of course she is.
SIGNORILE: I don't think Dick Cheney would like to hear that about his daughter.
KEYES: He may or may not like to hear the truth, but it can be spoken.
[UNIDENTIFIED VOICE]: Do you really believe that, that Mary Cheney . . .
KEYES: By definition, a homosexual engages in the exchange of mutual pleasure. I actually object to the notion that we call it sexual relations because it's nothing of the kind.
[UNIDENTIFIED VOICE]: What is it?
KEYES: It is the mutual pursuit of pleasure through the stimulation of the organs intended for procreation, but it has nothing to do with sexuality because they are of the same sex. And with respect to them, the sexual difference does not exist. They are therefore not having sexual relations.
SIGNORILE: Mr. Keyes, how can you support President Bush then, because if something were to happen to him, the President would be Dick Cheney, who has a daughter who you say is a hedonist, and a selfish hedonist, and the President would be supporting that at that point?
KEYES: It seems to me that we are supporting a ticket that is committed to the kinds of things that are necessary to defend this country, and we are all united in that support, in spite of what might be differences on issues here and there.
SIGNORILE: Thank you for speaking with us.
ALAN KEYES: Certainly. I think that President Bush needs to be reelected for the sake of this country's security. He has provided the kind of leadership that we're going to have to have if we're going to confront and defeat the challenge of terrorism that has already claimed so many American lives.
SIGNORILE: What did you think of Vice President Cheney last week coming out and saying he doesn't agree with the President on the Federal Marriage Amendment? Seems to be a break with the party. Do you think he is sending a mixed signal?
KEYES: I don't know. I think he is entitled to his personal convictions, but I think that the party's position is the correct one. We have to stand in defense of the traditional marriage institution in order to preserve its basis in procreation and make sure that we retain an understanding of family life that is rooted in the tradition of procreation, of childbearing and childrearing. That is the essence of family life.
SIGNORILE: Now, Vice President Cheney, of course, has a daughter. She is gay. He used the word gay. He says he has a gay daughter. He seems very proud of his gay daughter. It seems like real family values and certainly seems like preserving the American family. Is his family un-American?
KEYES: No, the point of the matter is that marriage, as an institution, involves procreation. It is in principle impossible for homosexuals to procreate. Therefore, they cannot marry. It is a simple logical syllogism, and one can wish all one might, but pigs don't fly and we can't change the course of nature.
SIGNORILE: Well, one can wish that Bob and Liddy Dole would have a child, but that's just impossible. Pigs can't fly.
KEYES: No, I'm sorry, that is incidental. In point of fact, Bob and Liddy Dole can have children. They incidentally face problems that prevent them from doing so. In principle . . .
SIGNORILE: Don't homosexuals incidentally face problems too?
KEYES: No, you don't understand the difference between incident and essence. Homosexuals are essentially incapable of procreation. They cannot mate. They are not made to do so. Therefore the idea of marriage for two such individuals is an absurdity.
SIGNORILE: But one or the other in the couple can procreate. The men can donate their sperm, the women can have babies.
KEYES: The definition and understanding of marriage is "the two become one flesh." In the child, the two transcend their persons and unite together to become a new individual. That can only be done through procreation and conception. It cannot be done by homosexuals.
SIGNORILE: But what about a heterosexual couple who cannot bear children and then adopt? They are not becoming one as flesh, they are taking someone else's flesh.
KEYES: And they are adopting the paradigm of family life. But the essence of that family life remains procreation. If we embrace homosexuality as a proper basis for marriage, we are saying that it is possible to have a marriage state that in principle excludes procreation and is based simply on the premise of selfish hedonism. This is unacceptable.
SIGNORILE: So Mary Cheney is a selfish hedonist, is that it?
KEYES: Of course she is. That goes by definition. Of course she is.
SIGNORILE: I don't think Dick Cheney would like to hear that about his daughter.
KEYES: He may or may not like to hear the truth, but it can be spoken.
[UNIDENTIFIED VOICE]: Do you really believe that, that Mary Cheney . . .
KEYES: By definition, a homosexual engages in the exchange of mutual pleasure. I actually object to the notion that we call it sexual relations because it's nothing of the kind.
[UNIDENTIFIED VOICE]: What is it?
KEYES: It is the mutual pursuit of pleasure through the stimulation of the organs intended for procreation, but it has nothing to do with sexuality because they are of the same sex. And with respect to them, the sexual difference does not exist. They are therefore not having sexual relations.
SIGNORILE: Mr. Keyes, how can you support President Bush then, because if something were to happen to him, the President would be Dick Cheney, who has a daughter who you say is a hedonist, and a selfish hedonist, and the President would be supporting that at that point?
KEYES: It seems to me that we are supporting a ticket that is committed to the kinds of things that are necessary to defend this country, and we are all united in that support, in spite of what might be differences on issues here and there.
SIGNORILE: Thank you for speaking with us.