January 25, 2000

Keyes clip:

"There are a lot of folks going around, and they say, 'I believe everything that Alan believes. He stands for everything that is in my heart. He articulates it more effectively than anybody who is out there. But . . . But he can't win. But this. But that.' Our goal in the months ahead is to do what we have already started to do here in Iowa. We're gonna turn all those 'buts' into 'Keyesters.'"

Chris Matthews: Joining us right now from Detroit is that Yiddish-speaking presidential candidate, Alan Keyes. Sir, thanks for joining us.

Alan Keyes: Thank you.

Matthews: We haven't heard "Keyester" on this show in a while, but I'm glad to hear it from you, of all people. Let me ask you about your victory last night. Explain it. Explain what it means to New Hampshire next Tuesday.

Keyes: Well, the explanation is very simple. A lot of folks in Iowa have responded to the message of moral priority that I have been articulating. They came out in great strength throughout the process for a year and a half we had good turnouts, people volunteering, people helping us to organize. That came to a head over the course of the days just before the vote, when we found that new faces were coming forward as friends and neighbors reached out to one another. And I think that was the explanation. It was pure grassroots at work, punctuated by the fact that we were able to get the message across in the critical days just before the end of the campaign in Iowa. And I think that it all came together very well, by the grace of God. And I am very grateful for it.

Matthews: Well, I think I saw a primordial rite of chieftainship the other day--you were being carried around on the hands of people in some sort of mosh ceremony. I want to know what that was like. We're gonna have to show that tape tonight. All these guys are holding you up in the air, and I saw your shoes disappear into the crowd. Was that a sign of greatness, or of impending victory?

Keyes: I came out of our last rally; we had about 1200 folks got together, very enthusiastic. And apparently Michael Myers was going around to each of the candidates, and they had this moveable mosh pit with people in it, and so forth, and they were challenging folks to sort of take a dive into the mosh pit. And didn't even know what it was, to tell you the truth, to show you how lacking I am in knowledge of the times. But my daughter and my wife understood, and there I was, trying to decide. The security guy, who goes around with me, you should have seen his face. He was definitely not pleased.

My daughter was standing there, Chris, and she was looking at me as if to say, "Go for it, Dad." Now, what father is going to resist the temptation to, you know, just try a little innocent fun in order to impress his daughter? And I've got to tell you: I'm 49. I'm a father. I will never be cool in my daughter's eyes. But I am just shy of it now.

Matthews: Well, congratulations. It is always good to be respected in your own family.

Let me ask you about this. In all fairness, you defeated two U.S. Senators in this race. You defeated Orrin Hatch handily, 14 to 1. You defeated the other fellow, a very famous fellow named John McCain who was on this show, 2 1/2 or 3 to 1 last night. You defeated Gary Bauer, of course. So you have knocked out half the field in Iowa. Where does it go in New Hampshire?

Keyes: Well, I think it translates into a very good beginning for the Keyes campaign. We have had a lot of folks working hard in New Hampshire over the course of the last year and more. They have been working and helping us to organize, and putting together events. And I think that this has really given an energetic boost to that. It has also helped to break through the media blackout. I think folks were just ashamed not to report the third place winner last night, so they had to mention my name. What can I say?

Matthews: Well, let's talk about that awful word, "resources," which is code for cash. You are in Detroit right now. When are you going to be able to get to New Hampshire, and be able to finance a ground campaign or an air campaign with ads. How do you do it?

Keyes: We are on the air in New Hampshire already. We have ads that are running, and they will run through the time that the primary vote takes place. We get good support, small contributors but lots of them, around the country who continue to provide us with support on a steady basis. We have seen an increase of 70% in that support over the last quarter, and I think it will continue to rise. The momentum is increasing.

(commercial break)

Matthews: We're back, watching Alan Keyes getting the royal treatment here, from the Mike Moore brigades. He's being held aloft by what are called "Keyesters." They are the people who support Alan Keyes.

Alan Keyes, it is great to be back with you. Let me ask you about your position on gun control. Everybody knows we've got a Second Amendment, although it is often taken out of the kids' textbooks when you study the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Where do you stand on the Second Amendment?

Keyes: I strongly support it. I think that the Second Amendment is there because the Founders understood the lesson of history that a free people must be an armed people, capable of defending their liberties not only against foreign enemies, but potentially against an abusive government. And that is why the right to keep and bear arms is there, why it is guaranteed to the citizens of this country, and why we would be in grave danger if we ever lose our ability to respect the instruments of our defense, and to make responsible use of them.

Matthews: Do you keep a gun at home to protect you from a repressive government?

Keyes: I keep a gun at home. I think I got it in order to help protect the family. But I think it is also, in the larger sense, part of what we as citizens have a right to keep in the event that, yes, things go wrong in this country. Jefferson, others who were part of the Founders, made it very clear. It is right there in the Declaration that if a government becomes subversive of liberty, and in the end a design is evinced to destroy the liberty of the people, "they have the right," he said, "they have the duty"--okay?--"to alter or abolish it." And that means that ultimately the people of the country are the arbiters. And they must be prepared to defend themselves if push comes to shove.

That is why the Second Amendment is there. We can be timid about it if we like, but that is the truth of it.

Matthews: I don't think it is a question of being timid. It is a question of what is a credible threat to us. During the 1950s and 60s and later, some people went out and dug air raid shelters, fallout shelters, to hide in if there's a nuclear war. That was something they felt was credible, and they took steps to protect themselves. Do you think that there is a real, credible threat someday of an armed force, a United Nations force, arriving in the small towns and hamlets of America?

Keyes: I didn't say anything about the United Nations. I didn't say anything about any such thing. The credible threat, sir--at the end of the 20th century even to raise that question seems to me absurd. We are at the end of a century when the abuse of human beings by government power has claimed the lives of millions of human beings. The suggestion that human nature has somehow changed since the founding period, and we no longer have to fear the abuse of government power, is so absurd at the end of the 20th century that I don't even want to address it.

Matthews: Well, you'll have to, because I'm trying to figure out what the threat is.

Keyes: We have the same nature today that human beings had when that document was written. We can put no more trust in those who have government power than our Founders could. "Absolute power corrupts absolutely," was the old phrase. And that means that when you entrust people with power, make sure you keep the means to be vigilant against their abuse. It is a lesson of history we will be loathe to forget, it see ms to me.

Matthews: In other words, you don't share those concerns that I hear so often on this program. I get letters on this, to the effect that people fear not so much a Washington, a repressive force coming to reach out and grab control of the local communities of this country, but a loss of U.S. sovereignty which would permit an international force, you know, the phrase "black helicopters" is used often.

Keyes: Meaning no offense, Chris, this is not the context of the Second Amendment discussion. I think that we have all kinds of institutions in this country to make sure that we can defend our borders and our sovereignty. I think that the give-away of sovereignty is not happening because we have troops coming across the border, it's because we have Bill Clinton and George Bush and Forbes and other people delivering us over to a free trade regime, handing our sovereignty off to the World Trade Organization. We are losing it without firing a shot. So it seems to me that if we want to defend against that, the ballot is the place we are going to have to go.

Matthews: In the course of your adulthood, and political concerns, have you ever come across evidence of the possibility of a repressive form of government reaching out into the American people and creating a situation where a smart person would have to arm him or herself to protect himself against such a force? Do you ever see any evidence of an aggressive, Washington, totalitarian . . .

Keyes: Sure, I would think that anybody who lived in this country in the last several years, and watched the egregious abuse of power that took place at Waco, is reminded that sometimes, for whatever reason best known to themselves, the people in our government lose sight of who they are supposed to be. That was a thoroughly disgusting, tragic, and un-American episode, in which Janet Reno said that because they were "tired" they went in and killed all those people, including children? I think that is time to remember that, yes, power can be abused.

(commercial break)

Matthews: Alan Keyes, you raised the issue of abortion during the Iowa caucuses, in which you did so well. Do you expect that to be a top issue in the New Hampshire primary fight next Tuesday?

Keyes: Abortion is going to continue to be a top issue in this campaign for just as long as God gives me breath. And I'll tell you, I'm going to make it a top issue every chance I get, everywhere I go. It epitomizes the moral crisis of this country. It involves the rejection of our fundamental moral principle that our rights come from God, not from human choice, and must be exercised with respect for the existence and authority of God. If we turn our back on that principle, we destroy the basis of our self-discipline, and of our moral conscience and judgment as a people. And I think that is exactly what is happening.

So yes, I'm going to continue to raise it, and I seem to raise it in an effective enough way that every single one of my colleagues has to address it. And I'm going to continue to put them on the spot.

Matthews: Give us an outlook. You have been very effective in these forays. When are the next debates going to be held between you and the other Republican candidates?

Keyes: God and the snow willing, we will be debating tomorrow night in New Hampshire.

Matthews: And it is going to be all five of you, or all six of you?

Keyes: That I am not sure of, because I haven't heard the latest on who is in and who is out. But I presume that whoever wants to be there, as I understand it, they are going to be able to join in the debates.